Best nuker?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by minipine69, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. minipine69

    minipine69

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    I was womdering who was the damage dealer/nuker. Just a unit thay solely deals damage.

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  2. TheLanimal89

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    Lauda, Rize, Mifune, Eze, Zekuu, Glenn, etc...
     
  3. Pulsate

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    Eze is extremely outdated and does lower damage than a lot of current units who arent even considered nukers.
    Glenn is extremely bad for nuking, low damage, no HP scaling, no double SBB, no good damage passives. He's just an average unit that sucks very hard out of colo.
    Mifune is terrible as well honestly, if you use him for hard-ish content he'll die and for nuke content there are 100 better options.
    Zeku can work with Kira but Lauda is better

    1) Long
    He's the best by far, he has 270% fckin self spark damage passives, a double SBB ST+AOE with HP scaling on AOE, 130.000 ATK cap increase and crit damage passives
    2) Lasswell
    Tons of great passives, double SBB ST+AOE with HP scaling on AOE and his SP options allow you to boost multiple Lasswells via EWD to water
    3) Silvie
    Tons of passives, double SBB ST+AOE with HP scaling on AOE
    4) Leona
    Tons of passives, double SBB ST+AOE with HP scaling on AOE
    Sadly she doesn't have good support in Earth unit appart from Wannahon LS and SBB, but Wannahon deals low damage
    5) Rize
    Passives, double SBB ST+AOE with HP scaling on AOE
    6) Lauda
    Passives, Double SBB but doesnt have HP scaling

    For general content, Long, Silvie and Lauda are the only viable ones because they bring more han damage and are very good even without taking self damage into account.
    Lasswell and Leona can be used if you have a free slot.

    For nuke content like FH, you dont want to use the best nuker UNIT, you want to use the best TEAM you can do with your units.
    You want to use duplicates, so if you have 1 Long 1 Lasswell and 1 Silvie, you would prefer to use 2 or 3x Rize or Lauda over those.
    Here is why:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/bravefront...ough_guide_to_perfect_sparking_2_nci_edition/
    This allows you to spark ALL the hits of the dupes = insane damage especially with units who have spark damge passives

    If you dont have Durumn, you might not want to use the Thunder nukers.
    Kira goes with Laudas.
     
  4. Zaegar

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    You forgot Keres
    Not liking an unit doesn't make it bad ;)

    The list should be

    1)keres
    2)durumn
    3)long
    4)laswell

    From now on scrubs, the only worth as nuker only is
    5)rize

    Because yes, keres does more damage than durumn AS SINGLE UNIT (not in team), did more than a few test (will post here a screenshot as proof)

    Here's the link
    https://imgur.com/a/yaIZQ

    All buff up, same team same spheres, no thunder or dark elements apart from keres/durumn themselves
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  5. Pulsate

    Pulsate Thanatos

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    Keres doesnt have double SBB and only has one crit (which is the worst with UBB) passive and ATK cap up, he's legit worse than everyone on the list including Lauda, Zeku, and yeah literally anyone with double SBB

    Honorable mention to Durumn for being an amazing lead and a strong nuker on paper but being unable to spark because she sadly has motor dissorder

    EDIT: Zeis, the fire GR unit that isnt released yet, is extremely strong too, just as good or better than Lasswell but there's a good chance we cant get more than 1 and there is no other noteworthy Fire nuker to pair with him (yet)
     
  6. Wallie 16

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    °^

    Avant and shura may ve outdated but theyre still their

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  7. Zaegar

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    Durumn does way more damage than rize, laswell, Silvie etc
    U just, like for rize, need two of her to perfect spark and every problem is solved
    Dunno against long (but I don't think he'll win) but I know for sure that dual durumn perfect sparking does more damage than dual laswell (aka does more damage than everything else) and that dual keres perfect sparking does more damage than dual durumn

    Keres is a monster, has a powerbomb nuking sbb, stronger than 98% of the others "nukers" and mitigates AND has some unique/rare/unusual buffs
    One would be blind to not see his greatness, and I wouldn't say u are. Hope u don't make me change my opinion tho

    The only bummer is that
    Durumn -durumn lead perfect sparking +2xlong +Silvie + (assuming u don't need a painter) another Silvie (if u need it, zeru/ark/soon shion) can probably melt the game

    Dark has yet to get those powercreeped units and has to rely, in the future, on something like
    Dual keres, 2xShion,2x zalvard
    But I don't know if shion has comparable damage output to long

    Comparing keres damage to Lauda's is pretty much dumb, Lauda cannot even scratch keres damage output. Having dual Target sbb doesn't mean the unit is strong
     
  8. matthew rylowicz

    matthew rylowicz Thanatos

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    So Glenn IS HP based nuker on sbb even without "passives" can be used for higj damage with damage elgifs/spheres plus the right ubb/LS. Also, Arus is a great nuker. HP based as well, tons of nuke passives that in your opinion make a unit nuke or not, breaks atk cap and adds 200% to sbb based on HP.
     
  9. Brimstone Emperor

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    Rize's boobies are the best nukers
     
    Something Royal and Etrius like this.
  10. Pulsate

    Pulsate Thanatos

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    Glenn has HP scaling? Lmao that unit is so shit outside colo I didnt even know :rofl: my bad
    Arus is amazing especially with the boosted scaling and passives, he will do the job as well as Silvie/Lass in single target long fights and he has tat great OD fill and pretty usefull UBB to speed things up sometimes.
    I didnt list him as nuker because Im used to nuker = FH, but I'd put Arus right below Long if we're talking "nuking"/killing faster against regular "hard" content and long fights (y)
    Arus is probably the only unit atm that is able to reach the 130.000 ATK cap "easily" without an ATK/BB boosting UBB or Heaven's Edge, thanks to his 800% mod relative to HP (most nukers have 700) that is upgadable to 1000%, which is quite a massive difference because he always has at least 150% bonus HP to boost the gap further.
    If the fight lasts for 4-5 turns Long still wins, he always wins.
     
  11. Pulsate

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    Durumn has the same HP scaling as Lass/Silvie but doesnt have spark passives at all. She still hits super hard but just not as much as those 2 or Long no matter how you look at it :confused:
    Her ATK cap increase dont matter outside UBB FH and even there, you can use Ascendent Self elgif on a Lass/Silvie and all strong friends should have that on those 2 by now.
    Dual Keres perfect sparking does "better" than dual Durumn because of a single reason: Durumn doesn't perfect spark. (read as "she has motor disorder")
    She is the only unit used atm that is unable to perfect spark reliably 100% of the time because of her movespeed type.
    I and a lot of other players tried everything we could to perfect spark reliably for FH and ended up with the conclusion that the best way to make dual Durumn effective is to.... remove one.
    When she does perfect spark, she does a lot more damage than Keres especially with element advantage.
    Shion wont help, he's an amazing nuker (and broken unit overall lol) but wont make up for the (relative) "weakness" or Keres compared to Longs.

    TLDR about why Keres is shit at the end. Simple maths and explanation are below:
    I dont think the team you suggested can even reach 3/4 of the simulator damage of the current Thunder team.
    Lauda with ATK, BB mod boosts will deal more damage than Keres as well.
    With standard 200% max HP boost (Dual 60% LS + 50% sphere + his 30% passive), 450% (Regil/Rozalia) BB mod buff, 150% standard Atk buff (to make it simple), 100% from dual LS and 100% element ATK boost (to make it simple again), you have 150% max HP, 800% mod.
    Lauda will have a 580+800=1380% AOE and a 660+800=1440% ST
    Keres will have a 200(base) + 700 x 3 = 2300% AOE and thats it.
    Add more ATK/BB mod (which is VERY easy to do, I only counter what you always have and didnt even count ATK from spheres, elgifs, passives) and Lauda beats him even harder.
    On the other hand you can only add so much HP, and the only actual option to help Keres get even close to double SBB nukers is Heaven's Edge which might give him the edge over Lauda (not even sure) since he has no HP scaling, but will favor Silvie/Lass/Long even more than Keres.
    Silvie math with the same conditions: 200(base)+ 700 x 3 = 2300% AOE and 600+800=1400% ST
    With much more passives that work all the time (spark), yes she is THAT superior. Exact same for Lasswell, a bit lower mod for Long because his scaling is lower, but he has fckin 270% self spark passives, self ATK boosts and a lot of crit. And the mod is fixed by Heaven's Edge or a damage UBB in FH. Not to mention he has ramping damage for longer fights. He even beats Arus against ST boss after 4-5 turns.

    Lauda has a Spark passive that works all the time, Keres has a crit passive that is already capped (read as "useless") in FH easily and resisted in most hard content (read as "nearly useless") and a small EWD passive that some people dont even take and only works against 1 element (and he cant even use it effectively because no double SBB)
    ATK cap increase doesnt matter for regular content, you wont reach the 130k cap without HE or an ATK/BB boosting UBB buff. And even if it did, Lauda has access to Ascendent Self elgif to break ATK cap (even if Silvie/Lass are much better candidates since they reah the 130k cap more easily thanks to HP scaled SBB)
    For FH, the double SBB is 10x superior because you reliably fight a weak element unit that you can target.
    For UBB FH, the gap is even bigger in favor of Lauda, again, because he can get use of those UBB buffs "twice" (its a shortcup but you get what I men)

    In FH, Lauda also has access to much more BB mod and ATK because he plays with Kira who has a lot of that on LS (and UBB if you're going Japan style)

    Those are basically the worst possible scenarios for Lauda and he still wins, every single time. Other HP scaling w/ double SBB nukers in the list will obliterate Lauda and make Keres look like Nice Burny :rofl:

    That being said, Keres is a mitigator with 2 turn elemental damage negation and stat conversions which can be usefull sometimes but still niche and doesnt compete with the likes of Rain, Cardes, Juno and a lot of other "more usefull" mitigators.
    On the other hand, nukers like Silvie, Lauda, Long also have very good utility outside nuking, arguable more than Keres actually...

    I said Keres is basically a Guild Raid leader skill that barely does anyting else because honestly that's true.
    Everybody has Rizes, not everybody even has multiple Keres to make him perfect spark.
    You cant even look at him as a mitigator because he only brings EWD negation (which is usefull but can be covered with speres) because you will most likely take Johann as the only Dark BB on hit unit.
    The conversions are nice tho, but imo not enough to be worth a spot outside of his raid LS.

    TLDR: Simple math and explanations above. Keres is worse as a nuke than literally ANY double SBB users, in hard content, in FH, everywhere, even in the worst case scenario for Lauda and the best case scenario for Keres. As for "regular content" he doesnt bring enough to the table. As for Guild Raid, if you have success with his LS or some people you know have success with his LS, he might be worth the summon but I didnt even consider it because much better units are coming
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  12. Zaegar

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    Funny fact is that Laura doesn't even come close to keres damage
    Strange, isn't it?
    U can bring up all the math u want, Keres will still deal more damage than durumn, which deals more damage than rize, that deals WAY more damage than Lauda's
    Hell, even shura shits on Lauda as damage
    If u talking about GENERAL utility of Lauda, he has none
    Why using lauda? Silvie exist. Feeva exist, regil exist
    Meta units, lauda buffs are already taken by another WAY better unit

    While I can agree that for someone that hasn't access to LEs cardes would be a better mitigator than Keres, I cannot let it pass as a absolute truth
    If u, like me, have almost EVERY meta unit, u won't use cardes
    Overall more utility, more slot efficient, yes.
    But when the team u make has ALL the common buffs and covers all the roles without cardes, keres becomes INVALUABLE, being the team nuker AND mitigation, having 2 turns of ewd (getting it from spheres is pretty much useless, u would lose stats or damage using ewd negating spheres), highest hp conv in the game and all

    Having double sbb doesn't mean nuker. You are giving misinformation to op and any newbies looking at those replies

    And just to be clear, double rize does not even comparable damage to double durumn BUT the problem doesn't even should be considered
    U can came up with ANY team, nothing will ever get close to dual durumn thunder team or dual keres dark team (which has comparable LS, withore stats and def/mitigation in GR)

    Again, refrain yourself from giving misinformation or just dump maths that newbies (or even veterans) CANNOT understand. If u don't like a unit, say u don't. It's not an absolute fact, it's your opinion, which I respect and accept. U should at least do the same
    I'm not saying keres is best nuker. Just pointing out that he IS a nuker, and not even a scrubby one
     
  13. Yoshino

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    Im going to put this out there but Nyami is a good nuker aswell (yes Im fully aware shes a 7* and most likely out dated) yet she can deal tonnes of damage herself (plus she can spark with herself) and if and when she gets her own OE I think she will definitely wipe the floor with everyone for nuking. No maths to give but personal experience
     
  14. Pulsate

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    Maths dont lie tho there's no way Keres has more damage than Lauda unless you ut im against multiple light ennemies :/
    Keres is a nuker compared to an unit that doesnt have HP scaled SBB, but compared to double SBBers he's wak and compared to other HPscaled SBBers he's just average

    Not saying Lauda is used much anymore since Silvie brings that BC on Spark, is a better nuker and has AI UBB, but in terms of nukin everyone is still ahead :/
    Those who dont have Silvie still use Lauda for BC on spark lot tho (basically a better damage option than Afla Dilith if you already have the spark buff covered by Regil)

    Again, did you actually try in simulator or just randomly saying X is better than Y cuz Ive been doing damage test the entire FH week and others have tested Keres for me (since I save for Shion) :/
    Compare things in the same situations, ofc if you compare against multi-light Keres beats all of them but on the other hand if you compare against multi water, 1 Long > 2 Keres LOL
    Rize with Ascendent Self IN FRONTIER HUNTER does comparable damage to Durumn if not more. Same HP scaling, reliable spark boosts when Durumn has none and crit damage gets capped anyways. And Durumn doesnt spark cnsistenty even with a dupe.

    How do you even compare Keres and Cardes... Cardes brings the same defensive things as Keres (miti, converts, null ewd damage) and more to the table (null crit, null ailments, bb on hit, heal on hit).
    Him and Claira allow you to have the same level of power/buffs as the current GE team with only 4 units instead of 5 o.0
    And he's free. Rain will still have uses because of is LS making him slot efficient but if you have either Claira or Regil and can use the lead combo, Cardes is the best mitigator sub in the game, better than Rain and 10x better than Keres :/

    About thunder teams, the very best nuke team currently doesnt include Durumn x2 (because spark inconsistency of type 5 movespeed) and certainly not Keres lmao
    Hell Kira/Lauda team is better than Dark team, it was tested.
    With Zeku as the nuker since no Shion yet but he point remains the same, Keres personal damage isnt affected by the other subs since he already gets all the buffs needed. And the test showed Keres potential damage output sucks

    To make a shortcut, having a double SBB unit with HP scaling on AOE (Silvie Lass Long Durumn) is basically equivalent to having a single SBB HP scaled unit (like Keres) + a 7th unit

    If you have the units for it, try Keres x2 lead Ensa x2 Rozalia Zeku (UBB) together, perfect spark all 4 and see who deals the most damage. Ensa will actually be similar to Keres since she has HP scaled SBB that will cap her ATK just like Keres but she has Spark instead of Crit which is better (since crit already gets capped)

    You can argue Keres may be usefull as a mitigator but you cant argue he's a worse nuker than the double SBBers, maths and simulator tests show the contrary it's not just my "opinion" :/

    Last thing, I dont see how Celestial Staff, Admonition Crown, Dauntless Shield, Virtuous Cape, or the 40% stats/null ails and elemental damage elgifs makes your unit "lose stats". And I probably forgot some.

    EDIT: Im asking a guildie for a Keres vs Zekuu (double SBB) test, he'll do that a bit later. the 2 units will be tested with a dupe fo perfect spark and identical spheres. Zekuu has no HP scaling so he's comparabl to Lauda. His AOE has 200% more base modifier tho, but it doesnt change much. Im gonna do the Durumn vs Rize thing when I used raid orbs and colo tickets so I can move spheres @Zaegar
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
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  15. Pulsate

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    Sorry but I dont like to be wrong when Im actually right @Zaegar :rofl: (no offense at all tho, I just like testing stuff)

    Here are the tests for Durumn, Long, Rize.
    ALL tests were done with the units "top" with HE-Excru and the units "bottom" with 150% Spark (Wisdom Flower and Sacred Axe) + Coilwhip
    So the spheres setups are exactly the same and comparable, the buffs too, only variables are the units themselves.
    Do note that the bottom Rize only has 500/800 ATK imps (which hurts damage by quite a decent amount since everything is based on base ATK and she can reach cap even on UBB)
    Also note than none of the Longs have Crit% SP option (because Gumi advertised them as 10 SP, I didnt pay attention and saw too late they were 20...) which doesnt matter for UBB setups since you cap crit damage already BUT would be a noticeable boost on auto battle (my guess is +10-20m on each Longs on auto)
    The 3rd SS is the same situation as 2nd but with Ascendent Self on Rize (allowing her to cap at 130k ATK instead of 90k, which, btw already equals/beats Durumn)
    http://imgur.com/a/fEcgd
    Check it out :p (read he few words below each pic to know what is what and explanation)
    Silvie will be in between the Rizes and Long (~70-75% of Longs' damage, 80-85% with Ascendent Self)
    Lasswells in the same conditions get very similar scores to Silvies (but dont need GR exclusive unit) and with Ascendent Self on one of yours + friend, they get like 150m (total score) below the Long team.
    Difference isnt bigger because as you can see Durumn actually is a "liability", which is why the best UBB team doesnt have 2 Durumn (and also because she doesn spark consistently)

    In non hard nuke content (if for some reason you bring Durumn or Rize dupes out of FH) the balance goes in favor or Rize/Longs even more because their self buffs are spread between ATK/Spark/Crit while Durumn is heavily in the Crit department.

    I asked a friend to do the test with Keres x2 and Zeku x2 (he's a double SBB nuker, even if he doesnt have the best passives he will still win by far)

    Expected result: Zeku obliterates Keres on UBB setup, even more with Ascendent Self. And they are pretty equal (or Zeku a bit better) in full auto setup
    It's not hard to guess it will be that way because Keres is very similar to Durumn but WITHOUT the ST bonus attack that makes all the difference.
    Wait a bit more for results, friend at work right now an it takes some time because just like Durumn, Keres is type 5 movespeed (I didnt know that, he's even worse than I thought) which means repeating the same thing 10x wont always perfect spark 10 (= unreliable as fck, same as Durumn which is why we dont use two)

    Lauda in a Kira team will get very similar results as Zeku in Keres team, since the LS, buffs and modifiers are very similar.

    Outside of dupe perfect sparking, Keres and Durumn being movetype 5 completely obliterates them, because they spark with very few units and new spark more than 50% of the hits (actually it's less) and it's not even reliable.
     
  16. matthew rylowicz

    matthew rylowicz Thanatos

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    I rhink TC needs to just summon from 1 gem gate and het 2 Arus'. He didnt state for FH, so hit ST shouldn't matter.
     
  17. Zaegar

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    Yeah i've done my tests too, and I posted them in the first reply I made here lol
    In my tests I was comparing the damage of the unit only, with no RNG involved (so made sure they critted around the same time and their best hits)
    From my tests, durumn and keres had similar damage, leaning towards keres (against rainbow enemies)
    (Mind I did that tests on his first day of release so he wasn't maxed/sp'ced)

    Anyway, I'm not saying yours are wrong and mine are right or vice versa
    And I WAS taking into consideration his superior damage against light enemies cuz.. well, that's what he was made for

    And about the thunder team we are saying the same thing
    Long is op, but u need durumn for her LS if u wanna nuke really hard. And u need two of her if u wanna nuke at the max.
    So in the end, as u WILL bring durumn, better getting the best out of her
    And assuming u won't use ubb even once when nuking, rize won't break Atk cap and durumn would be superior (again, useless, cuz she must be in the team anyway)

    And I felt no offense, hope it was the same for u cuz that wasn't my goal, not at all :p
     
  18. Pulsate

    Pulsate Thanatos

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    Nah lol dont worry :p
    There's no RNG in my tests, crist are 100%, sparks are 100%, ennemies of 6 different types
    with only one of the unit, it is still the same assuming same spark rate and same crits, the only variable in there is that everyone else has similar or better passives, and has a ST "bonus" attack as well
    And no, for nukng you want ONE Durumn not 2, she is inconsistent because of her movespeed, repeat the ame action 10x and she will perfect spark 5-7x an will sprk 0-20 hits the rest of the time. Oh btw, Keres is same movespeed, find the link.
    Best FH team for UBB is Durumn (L) Roza Zeku Long x3
    For auto, you use 2 Durumn because you need a 2nd LS for crit cap, so even if her sparking is super inconsistent she does similar/a bit better than the team above on auto.

    You cant test the damage of 1 unit in a random squad since they wont spark identically and dont have the same buffs
    I couldnt find a clear comparison with 2x Zekuu (double SBB) because Keres movetype sucks so badly that sparking him means you dont spark the Zekus smh it seems..
    Here Keres has EXACTLY the same buffs as Rize/Long have in the thunder team: Same dual LS (but dark type) 150% EWD to dark SBB, crit damage, rate same spark ad BB mod cuz Rozalia, same damage boosting UBB (Zekuu) same spark rate and crit rate (100% on both) and he reaches ATK cap too:
    http://imgur.com/a/mn7Ru
    The second picture tests a double SBBer without HP scaling (Zekuu). The result with Lauda in a Light team with the exact same buffs will be very close
    Read comment on pics

    TLDR: Assuming you have the same conditions (buff profile brough by the team and LS, spark rate and crits and against a weak type ennemy) Keres is definitely worse than literally everyone with double SBB, in a UBB nuke setup.
    In an auto setup Zeku, Rize, Lauda, Silvie, Lass, Long, and any other double SBBer (Gabby included)..etc.. still win over Keres but Zeku/Lauda are less "superior" (we're talking double damage here) since they dont ATK cap.

    Same for any "normal content" team with mitigation..etc.. and only one copy of the "nuker", as long as - again - the spark and crit rate are similar

    I cant say anything else lol no matter how you look at it Keres is the worst of all th "nukers" listed, he's not even more of a nuker than Azurai or Ensa, which is obvious since he has 1 HP scaling SBB like them and limited passives like them.

    OFC he still does 2-3x the damage of units like Rain, Holia..etc.. so in that sense you can call him a nuker/high damage unit, but he's not even in the top 5 and probably not even in the top 10, maths AND multiple simulator tests w/ identical conditions prove it :/
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  19. DrAnedapoo

    DrAnedapoo Gladiator

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    You need to have a full team of mifunes or zenias with sbb on all of them
     
  20. Henshen

    Henshen Karma Killer

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    1. That's quite some necromany you're attempting to pull off; not every dated thread needs an additional response without reading any of it.

    2. Like previously mentioned, Mifune is pretty bad at nuking nowadays compared to other units (6* era hp/def/rec stats not helping either) since double SBB is a thing, conversion buffs allowing other stats be treated like additional attack, and plenty of modern-day units have an option that can break the attack cap.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
    Yoshino likes this.

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