Vesti (ugh fine Bestie) Batch Review

Discussion in 'Unit Reviews' started by Eleiryn, Jul 26, 2015.

  1. Yon Tao

    Yon Tao General

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    IMO, that comparison seems a bit unfair, since it's basically 2 vs 1, don't you think? This might give people the wrong idea, so how about comparing it evenly with 2 vs 2?

    Like if you wanted more damage:
    Rize/Alpha/Grandt/ect. + Zenia vs Velnil + Raaga

    Or if you wanted status ailments:
    Balgran/Kafka + Zenia vs Velnil + Raaga
     
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  2. Taikero

    Taikero Apollo

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    I'm just talking about damage buffs here, but sure I'll humor you a moment.

    Rize + Zenia doesn't outdamage Velnil+Raaga. Same goes for Alpha+Zenia. Same goes for Grandt (sub) + Zenia. None of those units offer an actual effective damage buff.

    Balgran+Zenia also deals less damage than Velnil+Raaga because Balgran has no compelling damage buff.

    The only potential option here is Kafka with Light+Dark elemental retyping, and 5% HP to ATK conversion, however calculating Kafka's effective worth here is somewhat dicey given some/all of your units may already have the elemental advantage, and 5% HP to ATK is....well....not all that special. Worth maybe 500-750 ATK, which is maybe a 20% ATK buff (3000 ATK base assumed as an average for 7* imped units). Fairly terrible, even if I went more generous on my calculations.

    Kafka+Zenia can still outpace Raaga+Velnil here for damage, however you have to keep in mind that Kafka+Zenia are already Dark units, Kikuri is a popular buffer for BC fill on being attacked and is also Dark, and you need at least 3 units in your squad to benefit from the Light+Dark elemental retyping for the damage to be sufficiently powerful to outpace Raaga+Velnil. On top of that, you can't have brought along Grahdens, Ardin, Yujeh, Krantz, or Rinon because they also carry the same element retyping buff.

    So no, I'm not being unfair, and I'm not misleading people. I already addressed the fact that Zenia is currently exceptionally slot-efficient, and that it takes 2 units to gain 17% more damage over Zenia, which isn't exactly amazing but it is at least as powerful as a 142% ATK buff.
     
  3. Yon Tao

    Yon Tao General

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    I see, so in terms of damage would you recommend an attack buffer like Michele + Zenia over Velnil + Raaga?

    Edit: This is more about Velnil as a status inflicter, but another thing I want to mention is that status on hit can be powerful, it is not as reliable by itself versus ailments when attacking. From my experience there are raid bosses that can buff itself or use powerful attacks if you don't inflict status ailments, and by the time you do it might be too late. I remember a certain boss needed to be cursed otherwise it gave itself a +hit count buff that tore units with 18K hp with 50% mitigation and 140% def.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  4. Taikero

    Taikero Apollo

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    Yes, but not because of Michele's ATK buff, instead because of her Crit buff (and sort of because of her elemental retyping for Fire+Dark).

    If you're running Tridon + Zenia leaders, Michele will cap your Crit chance (40% her + 20% Tridon) along with the ATK buff.

    Michele alone here adds 20% (40% x 0.50) from Crit buff, and 16.66% (140 x 0.119) from ATK buff, for an effective 36.66% damage boost from Michele alone (not even counting element retyping benefits but those will boost this more). Tridon adds an additional 10% damage from the 20% crit chance he carries, but that won't factor into my consideration of Michele+Zenia (I'm just pointing out that Tridon as leader is highly desirable with this unit combination).

    So Zenia+Michele offers 83%+36.66% damage boost, or 119.66% overall squad damage boost, not counting elemental retyping which is almost guaranteed to bump squad damage an additional 8.33% or more (8.33% per unit that gains elemental advantage when they were dealing neutral damage before). This is certainly better than Raaga+Velnil at 100% squad damage boost.

    However, if you want to run Deimos + Zenia as your leaders, Michele isn't quite as good (although still pretty great) in this team (offers ~24.75% damage increase, which is what Velnil offers approximately), and the damage here would be equally interchangeable with Deimos + Raaga (+Velnil as sub).
     
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  5. HolyThunderOfAtharva

    HolyThunderOfAtharva Warlord

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    Bestie isn't that much of a bad name
     
  6. Taikero

    Taikero Apollo

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    I can't decide, which is Bestie?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. HolyThunderOfAtharva

    HolyThunderOfAtharva Warlord

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    The one that's more delicious
     
  8. Alchemia

    Alchemia Gleam

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    I love it when ya talk dirty, I mean numbers, about Michele.
     
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  9. ReL

    ReL The Ambitious

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    LoLz, great review Ely. Always love em.
     
  10. Grey-Ven3

    Grey-Ven3 Behemoth

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    dammit I was hoping Velnil to be a bit viable for a while. Being I have both Zenia(A) & Deimos(L), he'll have to take the back burner for a while :(
     
  11. Alrisha

    Alrisha Forum Stalker Moderator

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    IMO there are a few combination with Zenia that can beat Raaga+Velnil in overall squad damage. One in particular is Ultor + Zenia. Without considering their LS we are getting 200% ATK buff, 200% BB mod buff, 80% Spark damage buff and 50% Crit Damage buff with just only 2 units. It definitely out damage 90% spark buff + 200% BB mod buff only. Reyes/Wraith (later Glyph) + Zenia can outperform Raaga+Velnil in situations where Crit Damage Resistance is not present.

    And if we actually want to use status ailments like you said, we could use Kafka to combo with Zenia + Ultor to deal even more damage. She is less effective with Raaga+Velnil due to conflicting buff with Velnil.
     
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  12. Taikero

    Taikero Apollo

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    I agree with you with a few reservations, although my main point was proving that Velnil still has legitimate usage even with the recent Zenia frenzy.

    However, Ultor is a very risky damage buffer, and I say that for two big reasons. First reason is his 200% ATK buff lasts 1 turn, unlike almost every other buff lasting 3 turns. This already pigeonholes Ultor into situations where he can always get full SBB up so he's not dragging down squad damage. Additionally, a crit damage buff has dependency on crit chance to determine its actual contribution (5%-35% squad damage increase dependent on crit chance), and obviously with any crit damage resistance present it falls off in value. If Ultor can't maintain SBB every single turn and he faces crit damage resistance, he immediately turns into a big fat dud on the damage front. Velnil doesn't have to worry about that ever.

    You also can't just compare two units in a vacuum without taking into account their leader skills, particularly when they are most likely to be used as leaders. Raaga is basically crap without his leader skill because his leader skill holds most of his damage contribution, whereas Zenia is an excellent sub or leader due to the majority of her damage contribution living on her SBB.

    I mentioned crit leaders such as Colt/Reis earlier as part of my examples in tandem with Raaga+Velnil, and I wholeheartedly agree that a strong crit damage + crit chance leader outdamages Velnil, but that wasn't the point I was making. I just kept seeing everyone lament the downfall of Raaga, Velnil, Lava, Dion, etc. and I thought it would be a good thing to demonstrate how these units can still be completely relevant if you have the squad space for it.

    I also agree with your Kafka example, and also agree it would be rather silly to use Kafka and Velnil on the same squad without very good reason.
     
  13. De-So

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    I wish i had gems left for Vesti (Not Bestie!)
    Google translate messes up the names in global...
     
  14. DangQuang

    DangQuang Master

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    1 Big note: Ultor often use with a bc on hit buff (Which u will use in ur squad anyway) and with his taunt, he can make u have sbb in like 1-2 turns, or u can just use his bb for the DoT and focus on a raid boss part. Zenia's bb also come with a stunning 9bc fill, allowing for a much better squad flexibility and can be used on a tight spot, when u absolutely need to mitigate and ur mitigator doesn't have bb or sbb on him/her. In damage front, it may seems like raaga+velnil has the better end, but when u talk about ultility, ultor+zenia are much better overall (not to mention that ultor has the highest raw damage in the game and zenia is the second......).
     
  15. Taikero

    Taikero Apollo

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    The big caveat with a taunter and BC fill on being attacked is that unless the opponent you face uses AOE, your other team members (including your mitigator) won't be hit and won't fill any BC, which can be both dangerous and frustrating. In raids you'll generally be just fine but elsewhere, it's a dicey strategy.

    Zenia does have utility, I won't disagree, but Velnil and Raaga are no slouches either. What matters isn't a single unit, but which other units you pair it with and which opponent you're trying to defeat. Zenia's 9 BC fill is mostly irrelevant in Raids for instance, but in a single target Trial that would be incredibly helpful.
     
  16. ~{Chaos}~

    ~{Chaos}~ Khaos

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    Haha, I live reading these reviews. Very funny. Much informal.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  17. FateXer0

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    Hey thanks for the reviews time and time again.
     
  18. Ladybug

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    LMAO WHAT WHAT .
    -dead-
    braggy-ass prostitute xDDDD ohmygawd
    I feel you though , when I saw bestie I was like =.="
    but you funny lml
     
  19. LeonD

    LeonD Diablo

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    OK OK. I was gifted a bestie. I did a first read, and thought she was basically a fire Diana clone (and I already have her). Came on here and other spots and folks are acting like she's gods gift to bf. Reread. I get it now. Bb, sbb lineup IS basically Diana clone (slightly more effective?). But what makes her so good is combining that with that leadership. You see, I'm having to lead oguro right now against certain stuff cause I just need that drevas boost for my team. Oguro lead, plus diana sub is two 40 cost slots.

    Bestie just kinda mushes it all together huh?
     
  20. ReL

    ReL The Ambitious

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    the newest, cutest, and most adorable new unit award goes to ...
    [​IMG]

    omggg shes so cute, i love her.

    oops i just realized i posted this in the wrong section... :( sorry @Eleiryn
     
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